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A couple days ago, after hurling web-scenities at Wade Boggs, I got on an airplane, worrying that bad vibes from the vulgar, spiteful post would cause some sort of Old Testament-style high-altitude smiting. Yesterday in the hippie-thick city where a lot of my family has recently relocated to, I came out of a grocery store and some bearded dude was sitting near the carts and playing a sitar. And I thought to myself, yeah, a sitar, why the hell not? Gotta spread those good cosmic vibes, man. Ain't no time to hate. (At least until my return flight safely lands.)
So on that note here's Willie Horton, one of the more beloved figures in baseball history. As I see it, Willie does not quite make the cut for the all-time Tigers team, even if a designated hitter spot is added, because the Tigers have no less than four Hall of Fame outfielders ahead of him on the depth chart, plus one other candidate for the DH position, Norm Cash, whose numbers seem to be a bit better than Horton's estimable career record.
Cash, by the way, a first baseman who gets sent to the bench by Hank Greenberg, might also have a case for the wild-card position that I have included in these lists as a way of including the one player who can't find a spot in the starting lineup but who needs to be on the team anyway. I'm no expert on how Tigers fans generally feel about Cash, but he played for the team for a long, long time, and if the incident in which he went to bat carrying a table leg late in a game against an unhittable Nolan Ryan is any guide, his personality was surely the kind that would endear him to the fans.
But I don't think there's a statue of Norm Cash at the Tigers' current ballpark, and there is one of Willie Horton. I hope that some Tigers fans can chime in about this subject, but it seems from my distant viewpoint that Willie was not only a great player for a long time but was also one of those rare players with a special knack for letting the fans know that the love they are showering down is reciprocal. In a way it's very dumb that we fans put so much emotion into this game, but the truth is, right or wrong, we do. And we want to get the feeling that the players we are cheering for hear us and appreciate it. I think Willie Horton was able to do that.
So he's a member of the All Time Tiger team to me, in the extremely important wild-card spot. As for the other members of the team, I'm going to leave that open for debate in hopes of encouraging smarter fans than me to chime in with their picks. I'll eventually add my own ballot and then tally up the results.
Here are the Tigers batting and pitching leaders.
And here's the ballot:
C:
1B:
2B:
SS:
3B:
LF:
CF:
RF:
DH:
Wild card:
SP:
RP:
C: Freehan
1B: GreenBerg
2B: Gehringer
SS: Trammel
3B: Ray Boone
LF: Heilmann
CF: Cobb
RF: Kaline
DH: Cash
Wild card:Dick McAuliffe (Could play 2nd, SS, 3rd)
SP: Hal Newhouser
RP: Willie Hernandez
Sentimental choice-Mickey Lolich.
1B: Greenberg
2B: Gehringer
SS: Trammell
3B: Kell
LF: Horton
CF: Cobb
RF: Kaline
DH: Fielder
SP: Lolich
RP: Hiller
One of the first real books I ever read as a kid was Bill Freehan's BEHIND THE MASK, which I absolutely loved. It's a great inside look at baseball -- or at least it was when I read it, when I was about ten or eleven.
I always felt bad for the Cardboard God Willie Horton during that episode. I wonder how many people thought he was a furloughed murderer and rapist.
(a) career record for triples, 309. (Not to mention career OPS+ of 144.)
(b) I get to keep intact what may be the greatest outfield of all time: Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann.
(c) I love the name "Wahoo Sam" Crawford.
I agree with Horton as the wild card. If not him, I'd choose Gates Brown.
1B: Greenberg
2B: Gehringer
SS: Trammell
3B: Kell
LF: Heilmann
CF: Cobb
RF: Kaline
DH: Horton
Wild card: Cash
SP: Lolich
RP: Hiller
I was surprised at how average Mickey Lolich was. Several weeks ago someone was talking about fat pitchers so I remembered his 1968 World Series performance but in reality his career was nothing special.
Boone or Kell, but I went with Boone and his OPS+. Hard to leave Whitaker off the list but the team was loaded at 2nd base. Tigers seem to have so many underappreciated players that I remember watching in awe. Freehan, Parrish, Northrup, Whitaker, McAuliffe, Fielder, Cash, Horton, Gibby, and my favorite Chet Lemon.
As a kid I was astounded when the Tiger manager had the balls to move Stanley from CF to SS during the 68 world series. When Northrup hit that ball over Curt Floods head my yelling could be heard all over Germany. Little did I know at the time that Curt Flood would later make such a big sacrifice for his fellow players.
can't disagree with most of the choices here. Any team that has Hank Greenberg at first is A-OK with me.
I think you have Heilmann confused with Veach. Heilmann and Crawford overlapped slightly, but were never great together.
I did some quick math (maybe not so quick -- I was probably nine years old), then scribbled my results on a scrap of paper.
Now, imagine you're my father, and you've invited a business associate over to the house on a Saturday afternoon for some important work talk. Suddenly your son runs into the room, clearly wanting to tell you something but not wanting to interrupt, so he hands you a folded scrap of paper. It reads:
"Mickey Lolich averaged 8.3 innings per start in 1971"
Honestly, how do you react to something like that? I wish I knew, but I'd already run back out of the room.
There can, of course, be no such thing as a Tigers team without Sam Crawford on it. I'm going to solve the outfield problem by putting him in left, where he played only 46 games for the Tigers. But I'm guessing he could handle left.
C Freehan
1B Greenberg
2B Gehringer
3B Fryman (An easy choice going by the numbers -- I'm surprised he hasn't been mentioned yet.)
SS Trammell
LF Crawford
CF Cobb
RF Kaline
DH Heilmann
SP Newhouser
RP Hiller
Wild Card - Kirk Gibson
FYI: Some new comments are in on the following older posts: Cubs 1977 and Larry Biittner (Cubs), plus some lingering discussion on the recent Wade Boggs and Randy Jones posts.
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/UtjY
In retrospect, Fryman over Kell is not as easy a choice as implied in 14 . Fryman had a longer Tigers career, Kell was a somewhat better hitter. Both were good glove guys, though Kell was probably better in that regard.
How about Hank Aguirre and that 1962 season. Where did that come from. So not including the war years these are the season I'd use to pick my rotation.
1962 Hank Aguirre
1968 Denny McLain
1976 Mark the bird Fidrych
1997 Justin Thompson
I'm staying with the four man rotation. Anything else is an abomination.
But also thanks for the support of Crawford's candidacy. He's a favorite of mine, and he's still got the 309 triples (309!) and the nickname.
And Gates Brown was a strange, almost mythic character in those years, renowned for having pinch-hitting superpowers.
None of the other results offer anything useful.
Rod-ri-guezzzz
Let's say "without repeating."
1B Greenberg
2B Gehringer
3B Kell
SS Trammell
LF Crawford
CF Cobb
RF Kaline
DH Heilmann
SP Newhouser
RP Hiller
Wild Card - Sweet Lou Whitaker
It might come as a surprise to some, but I grew up a Tigers fan. My dad was born in Detroit and the first game I ever watched was at Tiger Stadium. Even though I was born only 2 years before it, I reveled at the time in the fairly recent history of the 1968 Tigers, who I would still rate my favorite team. (Weird how you can have a favorite team, even though you never watched them. I grew to love them from books I read.)
My 2 favorite Tigers were Willie Horton and Norm Cash. It is really hard for me to leave them off, but Whitaker is one of the 15 best 2nd baseman in the history of the game. I have discussed at my site that I think Trammell is the most glaring omission from the Hall of Fame, as his stats at a premium defensive position should make him a slam dunk. Whitaker is not that far behind him and is the player I'm most on the fence about if he should be in or not. His dumbass comments during the player strike might be enough for me to say no, but he should be on the roster. Here are his similar batters list from baseball reference.
1 Ryne Sandberg (901) *
# Alan Trammell (899)
# Barry Larkin (879)
# Ted Simmons (871)
# Buddy Bell (861)
# Roberto Alomar (858)
# Brian Downing (853)
# Joe Torre (853)
# Joe Morgan (850) *
10 Carlton Fisk (845)
Norm Cash might have had the greatest overlooked season in baseball history. For those of you that don't know his stats for 1961, here they are.
Avg. .361
OBP .487
SLG .662
HR 41
RBI 132
For that he finished...4th in the MVP race. He was behind these guys named Maris and Mantle and also finished behind Jim Gentile.
Cash had an OPS higher than all 3 of them, with it being .157 points higher than MVP Maris. He never batted higher than .286 the rest of his career, but he did have a top 10 finish in OPS 6 different years. 9 times he was in the top 10 in homers and twice finished second in the category.
Bill James sees little to choose from between Freehan and Parrish, but he does rank Freehan higher.
1B: Greenberg
2B: Gehringer
SS: Trammell
3B: Kell
LF: Heilmann
CF: Cobb
RF: Kaline
DH: Horton
Wild card: Cash
SP: Newhouser
RP: Hernandez
....the shakiest of my selections was Willie Hernandez at RP. I think that I would rather face Hiller in his prime than Hernandez. It was a tough call between Freehan and Parrish. Coincidentally, all Tigs that have their #'s retired are on my team....Kaline, Gehringer, Greenberg, Newhouser, Cobb*, Horton
*technically...didn't have a uniform number, but otherwise would be retired.
I also have to admit to giving the edge Kell at 3B (he was the tiger's t.v. play-by play announcer growing up alongside Kaline.
Also, as a life-long Tiger fan....thanks to everyone for not including "Cardiac" Todd Jones as the RP. He's the all-time Tigs leader in saves and the 00's leader in disappointment.
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