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Indians-Red Sox Game 7 Chat (updated with lineups)
2007-10-21 07:10
I’d be happy if either one of these able fellows could somehow take the mound tonight on full rest (Beckett does indeed appear ready to pitch in relief), but they wouldn’t be my first choice if I could reach back into history for anyone. They’d have a lot of good company among the pitchers passed over for the job, including: Cy Young. The winner of all imagined conversations in pitching heaven, e.g.: "Wow, that is a lot of Cy Young awards you’ve got there. No doubt about it. Hm? What’s that? What’s my name? Why don’t you ask one of your little trophies. You know, on your way to getting your shinebox." Smokey Joe Wood. His 1912 season was one of the greatest ever. Also the possessor of the coolest name for a pitcher ever, with the possible exception of Blue Moon Odom. Incidentally, he is a member of the all-time team of Red Sox-Indians; after arm trouble killed his pitching career he made a comeback as a part-time outfielder with the Cleveland Indians, helping them win the 1920 World Series. Babe Ruth. Really tough not to pick the Babe, who for many years held the record for most consecutive shutout innings in World Series play; plus, of course, he could bat and let the DH David Ortiz hit for Julio Lugo (by the way, has the DH ever been used for anybody but the pitcher?) Roger Clemens. The numbers in context point to him as quite possibly the author of the greatest regular season pitching career of all time, and if he were on the mound tonight for the Red Sox, in his prime, I wouldn’t complain, but I’d also be a little worried about an overpumped bat-throwing ump-berating meltdown. Pedro Martinez. The dominant, fearless maestro. When Clemens was at his peak for the Red Sox I was gratefully aware that we had one of the best pitchers in the game; when Pedro was at his peak for the Red Sox I often found myself wondering if we had the best pitcher who ever lived. But if I could pick one player from Red Sox history to pitch tonight’s game, I’d follow the thinking of former Red Sox manager Darrell Johnson, who once said, "If a man put a gun to my head and said I’m going to pull the trigger if you lose this game, I’d want Luis Tiant to pitch that game." Luis Tiant came through in many a big game for the Red Sox, and I believe he should be in the Hall of Fame. But those are not the sole reasons for my choice. Part of the reason has to do with the element of resurrection in his career. After breaking in with the Cleveland Indians, where he authored a season for the ages in 1968, Tiant appeared done as a pitcher in the early 1970s. These terse lines from the transaction section of his page on Baseball Reference.com tell the story: March 31, 1971: Released by the Minnesota Twins. Picked up, dumped, picked up again, dumped again. The Red Sox took a chance on him and to their credit stuck with him throughout 1971 as he compiled a putrid 1 and 7 record. The following season he turned things around, and for most of the rest of the decade he was once again among the best pitchers on the globe. He had been finished, a Hefty bag left on the curb, but he came all the way back, resurrected. But the theme of resurrection isn’t, in the end, the deciding factor for me, though it feeds into it. Here’s the main reason I’d give the ball to Luis Tiant: Joy. Luis Tiant not only dominated in big games, he entertained, he enchanted, he enthralled. He toyed with batters with his wide assortment of bedeviling pitches and his looping corkscrew windup (the most imitated big league gyration of my childhood), and in doing so and by the sheer magnetism of his ebullient personality he played the entire packed house at Fenway like it was the world’s biggest and loudest musical instrument, a thumping, chanting, cheering organ of hope and celebration. If you’re going to play a game seven, you might as well win, and if you’re going to win, you might as well enjoy it. So here's hoping that the spirit of El Tiante can somehow flow into the corkscrew windup and the wide assortment of pitches of the actual starting pitcher for tonight's game, Daisuke Matsuzaka, whose season to date has been a little like the first two acts of Luis Tiant's career, great promise followed by a seemingly unstoppable demise. Here's hoping that now is the perfect time for Act Three. * * * The lineups (courtesy of Amelie Benjamin's Boson Globe blog): Indians 1. Grady Sizemore, CF SP - Jake Westbrook Red Sox 1. Dustin Pedroia, 2B SP - Daisuke Matsuzaka
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I suppose the correct answer is Lefty Grove, but he was before my time. Taking only Oakland pitchers, I'd take Dave Stewart.
I need to sit down first.
He went out two hours later and threw a five-hit, complete game shutout.
So, anyway, there are two things I know about Darrell Johnson. One, he was the first manager of the Seattle Mariners. Two, there was a 1975 quote from Bill Lee about him: "He's like a cat. He's been falling out of trees all year and landing on his feet", which was essentially Lee calling him a lucky idiot; just as Lee called all his managers idiots at one point or another.
That's about it. Is there anything you can recall about his managerial style, Josh?
Famed author / sportswriter Roger Angell wrote about Luis Tiant in Five Seasons (page 293) and described in detail his unique style of pitching. One serious fan of Tiant's wrote, 'if you have ever seen Tiant pitch, you will see that this is an EXACT description of his work:"
1) Call the Osteopath: In midpitch the man suffers an agonizing seizure in the central cervical region, which he attempts to fight off with a sharp backward twist of the head.
2) Out of the Woodshed: Just before releasing the ball he steps over a raised sill and simultaneously ducks his head to avoid conking it on the low doorframe.
3) The Runaway Taxi: Before the pivot, he sees a vehicle bearing down on him at top speed, and pulls back his entire upper body just in time to avoid a nasty accident.
4) Falling Off the Fence: An attack of vertigo nearly causes him to topple over backward on the mound. Strongly suggests a careless dude on the top rung of the corral.
5) The Slipper-Kick: In the midpitch, he surprisingly decides to get rid of his left shoe.
6) The Low-Flying Plane(a subtle development and amalgam of 1, 3, and 4 above): While he is pivoting, an F-I05 buzzes the ball park, passing over the infield from the third-base to the first-base side at a height of eight feet. He follows it all the way with his eyes.
From Baseball Almanac:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/luis_tiant_quotes.shtml
3 : Dave Stewart killed the Red Sox in the playoffs.
4 : I'm like you, really; I'm a little too young to have any impressions about Darrell Johsnon. I've heard stuff along the lines of the Lee quote; I think one of the players once said they were winning in '75 despite Johnson.
5 : Beautiful. Thanks for those Angell-ic descriptions.
6 : Tough to pick between those two, at least as far as "ability to carry a team in postseason." Hershiser has the edge on Yom Kippur.
As far as the Mariners go, there's really only one choice. Randy Johnson. It's boring, I know, but choose anybody else and you're just trying to stir up controversy.
I tend to phrase this as the Alien Attack Question-You are picked to manage a team of the greatest players who ever lived in a baseball game against an alien race. Winner gets to exterminate the losers. You don't know anything about the alien players, other than they know the rules of the game and will play by the rules. Every human player is at their peak and fully healthy. Who do you name as your starting pitcher?
I answer the question this way:
1. Bob Gibson
2. Pedro Martinez
3. Sandy Koufax
This question tends to be not only a great pitcher question, but a making adjustments question. Can the pitcher not only dominate, but if the money pitch proves unreliable or hittable, can the pitcher then get hitters out with pitch 2 and pitch 3?
To answer Josh's question, I put Looie on that list, along with Petey and, frankly, the Big Schill.
5 Thank you for the Angell quote. He is a favorite author of mine, and I love that section.
You know, for the kids.
But if he had to pick someone to pitch one game and the pitcher's life depended on it, he'd take Gibson...
Mother Nature's Son
Tryin' To Reason With Hurricane Season
My Hometown
Careless Talk
The Obvious Child
Healing Hands
Beatles
Buffett
Bruce? Joe Jackson has a similar song
unknown
Paul Simon
unknown
They're playing "She's Leaving Home" right now at the stadium.
Yes
Yes
(Bruce)
Billy Joel
Yes
Paul Simon
I know, too many Yankee fans.
IPod doesn't have a setting for that.
Billy Joel
Yes
Elton John
Sorry.
Wouldn't you drink if you worked for FOX?
More from the IPod:
Downeaster Alexa
Dizzy Miss Lizzy
Nobody Knows You (When You're Down and Out)
(uh oh.)
God Part II
Killing Me Softly With His Song
Yesterdays
Everybody's Trying To Be My Baby
Whoever's that was, kudos.
More from the IPod:
Happy New Year B
Star 69
I heard Amalie Benjamin on Soxcast referring to there being a Mike Tyson's PunchOut game in the clubhouse.
That's awesome.
You're a glorified screwball.
Wow, that curve was nasty.
Be My Girl/Sally
Sparrow
Still Crazy After All These Years
Can't Buy Me Love
DP is back, y'all.
Actually, Tim, and I say this as someone who is open to your announcing charms, that's not a good thing.
IPod:
Spirits In The Material World
The Times They Are A Changin
Light As The Breeze
Final Straw
Cloudy
Gardening At Night
How, exactly, does having a six team league help a pitcher?
IPod:
All Shook Up
Drive My Car/The Word/What You're Doing
When I Look At The World
Mandolin Wind
Piano Man
Blessed
I Alone
You Got Me Hummin'
Paradise
You Took My Breath Away
Watching The Wheels
Reggie
Tom Seaver
Wade Boggs
That would be "My Home Town" by Tom Lehrer? (Just picked up "The Remains" myself)
Maybe its just the beard.
Jon Miller likened it to a hula action.
(snicker)
IPod:
If I SHould Fall Behind
This Is The Time
Well anyway that's the "My Home Town" I have on my portable. The guy's still alive if you can believe that. Teaching math.
-and is there any easy way while muting Fox audio to synch up radio broadcast audio? (different delays apparently)
-I'm sick of hearing that schmuck McCarver
It's Reggie, Sutton, and Boggs.
But one day Spike Owen will make it!
Let Me Roll It
The Boy in the Bubble
God
Black Coffee In Bed
What is Wedge DOING? If I were an Indians rooter, I'd be rending my garments asunder.
Gary Lucas also only made it through 8 seasons.
Steve Crawford however did get in 10 years.
Gary Pettis was a Juan Pierre prototype. Although Pettis could field a lot better, but if he ever hit the ball out of the infield, it was a surprise.
that's the thing though, there on to him if he throws fastball down the middle the Indians will make Matsuzaka pay for it! there figuring him out I guess....
IPod:
Walk This Way
Backdoor Man
Electron Blue
All Apologies
Blitzkrieg
I hope he doesn't, but Wedge has got to do something soon.
yup, specially if it's straight like a lazer, a la Tomko.
Gary Redus was a plus 41.2 batting runs and 4.2 batting wins.
Juan Pierre is already at -119.8 batting runs!
Plus I'll bet that Pettis had some dumb managers who batted him leadoff way too often
Piggies
My Life
YES!!!!! Fear the arm of Manuel!!!!
Gene Mauch also liked to use Rick Burleson and Ruppert Jones in the leadoff spot.
What an incredibly strange man Gene Mauch was.
THERES the nice hook again.
1] if the BoSox win ratings will sky rocket
2] if Cleveland wins only hard core fans will really enjoy the series.
If you like baseball, why would you care about the TV ratings? You will watch the World Series anyway.
If other people don't want to watch, that's their problem.
Baseball isn't a sitcom. It's not going to get canceled if people don't watch in sufficient numbers.
That's cool...
Unless it were in Japan, in which case, you'd come in wearing a surgical mask to begin with.
Daniel
The Ballad of the Boy In The Red Shoes
I can't believe either starter hasn't been pulled yet.
IPod:
I Dreamed A Dream
Only The Good Die Young
Shout
Still Crazy After All These Years
Zanzibar
Give Peace a Chance
IPod:
I Dreamed A Dream
Only The Good Die Young
Shout
Still Crazy After All These Years
Zanzibar
Give Peace a Chance
Heartburn? Uh, yeah.
Apparently you haven't consulted Scott Long.
You May Be Right
Daddy Sang Bass
10 outs to go.
Me: An ugly logo?
I don't think Francona would let Dice-K pitch a complete right.
I know about as much Japanese as everyone else here.
Immortality
Wilbury Twist
Leopard Skin Pill Box Hat
Do It For The Kids
Darkness on the Edge of Town
Eleanor Rigby
I'm Ready
Finale
Rocket Man
My wife has a life threatening crush on Mike Rowe.
He had 72 in Japan.
IPod:
Damned For All Time/Blood Money
(uh oh.)
Too Late Too Late
(uh oh.)
Off He Goes
The Boxer
Need You Tonight
Crash Course in Brain Surgery
New Kid In Town
the one in which the Red Sox lose.
His sinker is sinking a lot more apparently, either that or there not being selective.
jezuz, what a frustrating nail-biter.
What a clutch DP. WOW.
What an unbelievable game.
Wow.
6 outs to go.
Lucky for us, Joel Skinner just had a brain lock. Joel, I'd like you to meet Rene Lachemann.
IPod:
The Arrest
Allentown
Don't Cry
Today 4 U
I can understand if its a slow runner but you've got Lofton running down the line, who knows if they'll get another chance now. I think there Closer Papelbob is coming in to pitch 2!!
SpudRph, is "Don't Cry" from guns 'n Roses?
Casey Blake, I'd like you to meet Dick Stuart.
Believe me, I hope I am wrong about this, but I can't see anything that could keep this Sox team from scoring runs except psychology.
It was also the last year they added any bathrooms to Fenway.
Or painted it.
I think I can breathe again.
Grit.
Under Seven ft. tall.
Under 500 lbs.
Jaizus.
I'm just like it. "Increasingly inaccurately named."
Dude (Looks Like A Lady)
Five Long Years
Code of Silence
Fever
Can't Get It Out Of My Mind
American Tune
Laura
Christmas in the Caribbean
Goodnight Saigon
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
Beautiful
And it's working, so I ain't stopping. 6 outs to go.
SpudRph is "Beautiful" from the band "Flickerstick"?
Except for most of use our destiny involves going to the grocery store to buy microwaveable pizzas.
Hehe, bad echoes from the other LA baseball team.
But I hope to hell I'm wrong.
I was surprised that Lofton was held at the time. There's no way Ramirez could have anticipated a carom that way.
I think he was safe, too, but the ump was RIGHT ON TOP of the play. Is it not possible he saw it better than we did?
Heart now emerging from throat.
3 outs to go.
IPod:
Levon
Overture
So Fast, So Numb
Gumboots
Rue Plumet/In My Life
Hard Sun (Main)
well yeah, I wanted there 3rd base coach to send the speedy Lofton, Bob did also.
Anyone wish to guess who held the old record at .455?
The NLCS record for a 7 game series is .772!
http://tinyurl.com/2jktsf
just.
what does he chew anyway.
It hurts my jaw watching him.
222 He was less than 20 feet away. We don't know what he saw. The perfect angle would be from the third base dugout, about 30 feet in the air. From what I saw, I agree with you, he should be safe, but the umpire was SO CLOSE. I believe maybe he saw what we missed. I don't know. But it's possible.
me either I was just asking.
Hey Blake, why don't you just sit down and watch the rest of this one?
I think Hurdle bests Francona for chewing intensity. Looks like his jaw could fly off at any moment. The comparison shots between him and Francona should make for interesting Fox baseball.
IPod:
Five Long Years
Eddie Boyd? Or Eric Clapton?
Not that many people remember that.
Five Long Years
Or Muddy Waters? I just realized I have all three on my lap top!
It's Silly Season now.
I can't find her, were is she SpudRph, is the shirt black or white?
I'll take this one, Josh....
YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUK!!!!
And top OBP unless Manny Ramirez gets a chance to bat.
The uniqueness of match ups in baseball, I guess.
IPod:
Sacrifice
Magical Mystery Tour
Rain
Everybody Loves You Now
Lonely Stranger
Matchbox
Bastille Day
52nd Street
She looks kind of tomboy-ish though bro. I havent seen her face yeat.
And likely not be the MVP.
1 OUT TO GO!!!!!!!!
I love that dirty water.........
And one of the better catches I've seen in Fenway.
Wonder how much that hurt?
Thanks for the congrats and the company everyone. I'm a happy camper.
It ain't over, but the American league Pennant is Big. Hang another flag, boys:
1903
1904
1912
1915
1916
1918
1946
1967
1986
2004
2007!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who's the MVP? I still gotta go Beckett.
And those words I buttered in game four taste just fine....wow. I have to admit, I bailed, and I couldn't be happier to be wrong.
And re 278 : yeah, Beckett, no question in my mind.
http://tinyurl.com/3dhpwn
I'm in seventh heaven.
Really nice soothing tune, & ironically when I played it Fox was showing the BoSox celebrating in slow-mo which went hand 'n hand.
288 : Great. I want to see what he's going to do tonight.
The 86 total runs scored match the 2004 ALCS.
The Game Chatter format isn't that conducive to discussing the cards, although I think you use them as McGuffins anyways, but I had a few comments on the recent ones.
Rick Miller: Married Pudge Fisk's siter. I forget if that came up.
Eck: Used to oil on 80-Weight. I remember him more as an A even though I was following the Red Sox from 78 to 84 with the intensity of a Talmudic scholar. The Spaceman had some good anecdotes about him in The Wrong Stuff.
Jack Brohamer: His Broham Tom is a leading handicapper of Thoroughbrds and has authored a book titled Modern Pace Handicapping.
Larry Andersen: Often wondered why people parked on driveways yet drove on parkways. The Baseball Uncyclopedia thinks that he ripped most of his material from Stephen Wright.
El Tiante: Pretty damn similar to Catfish Hunter. I guess the WS rings are what got Hunter to Cooperstown over Luis. Guy was able to keep a cigar lit in the shower.
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