http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/KzM9

Looking at the list I'd have to say that Gene Tenance or Andre Thornton would have to be part of the discussion of under rated.

We all know the greatness of the non-hof players like Allen, Rice, Lynn, Parker, Reggie, and Foster but it was a shock to me to see Tenance, Thornton, Hargrove, Madlock, and Watson in the top 25. Does anyone even remember how good Andre Thornton was? He didn't garner a whole lot of at bats but he sure produced when he got them.
Gene Tenace was a walking machine, with excellent power for his day. He grades out as much better then Simmons as an offensive catcher.

I'm going to vote for Gene Tenace.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garrra01.shtml

It was not for the faint of heart.

Cecil Cooper 1B - solid power, great average, good OB%, great field
Jorge Orta 2B/OF - hit a ton for a 2B, behind only Morgan and Grich
Ralph Garr OF - good hit, no walk, no K, along with Orta modeled ChiSox 70s unis best
Al Oliver OF/1B - one of most consistent good hitters of 70s
Bill Madlock 3B - career .305/.365/.442, even better in the 70s

For some reason, I always associate a particular slang term for home run, "tater," with Andre Thornton. He hit a lot of taters, did Andre Thornton.

2 : I have a feeling I'm going to agree with every name mentioned. In a way, the whole premise of this site is that every major league baseball player from the 1970s is currently underrated and needs to be praised at great length.

Madlock was a pretty huge star at the time but has faded in the ensuing years.

Orta, at least according to my experience with Strat-O-Matic (and also evidenced by the fact that he logged a lot of time as a DH), was a fairly putrid fielder at second base.

Looking at 1970-1979, Singleton actually out WARP3ed Smith, 65.2 to 63.5. Murcer is at 57.2. Tenace is at 60. Watson is at 53.6. The other guys you mention, ToyCannon, (Thornton, Hargrove, Madlock) suffer because they didn't play in every year of the 70s.

Oh, and Ted Simmons? He paces the field at 69 WARP3 for 1970-1979. I'd call him the most underrated.

(BTW - if there are any errors in my calculations (no sortable stats page has WARP3, so this was all by hand, err, Excel), my apologies.)

Andre Thornton was a terrific hitter for a few years. I wouldn't put him in the same category as most of the other guys mentioned here.

Perhaps its simply endemic to the first name, since both Reggies definitely had one of these.

Could it be possible that the answer to the last nagging question is also the answer to this one -- Joe Morgan? He did, of course, win two MVPs, but his extraordinary greatness is always understated and underrecognized today, as it probably also was (to a certain extent) while he was active.

But instead of Morgan, and instead of The Other Reggie (who is a fine choice), I'm going to offer up Jimmy Wynn.

Are we talking about who's underrated now, or who was underrated then?

If we're talking about then, one factor to consider is exposure. For most of the country, the playoffs, the World Series, and the Game of the Week were the only way to see teams from the other league, and often out-of-town teams in general. The GOTW, in particular, was extremely important, and tended to show the same teams as in the postseason (for obvious reasons). So the Reds, Dodgers, Pirates, Orioles and A's were very familiar nationally; later in the decade, the Yankees, Red Sox, Royals and Phillies joined in.

Morgan was definitely not underrated; no one on the Big Red Machine was, and he had those back-to-back MVPs. Madlock wasn't underrated, either, and Tenace was pretty well known. Simmons wasn't on TV nearly as much, but it's my (possibly faulty) recollection that he was known as a damn good hitter.

To me, Smith and Singleton stand out because they were on TV all the time and still managed to be underrated. I lean towards Smith, probably because I'm a Yankee fan, so I knew all too well how good Singleton was.

Morgan was definitely not underrated then; no one on the Big Red Machine was, plus Morgan had those back-to-back MVPs. Madlock certainly wasn't underrated then, either.

One important factor to consider when talking about that era: the Game of the Week. For most of the country, that was the main exposure to teams from the other league, and often to out-of-town teams in general. The Reds and Dodgers were on the GOTW constantly, and the O's and A's were on a lot. (Obviously, they were also all in the postseason a lot.)

It's my recollection (which could be faulty) that Simmons was generally acknowledged as a damn good hitter. He did suffer from not being on the Game of the Week as often as some of the others, since the Cardinals were a comfortable middle-of-the-pack sort of team. Don't underestimate the importan

I always think of Reggie Smith as a Dodger, and had conveniently forgotten where he had been before. This can be attributed to the fact that my earliest memory of baseball is Carlton Fisk's 1975 home run, but I wouldn't really have a solid knowledge of the members of a team until 1977, when Reggie was a fixture in Right for the Dodgers.

I think the issue is precisely your point in #2A. When I think of that Dodgers team, I think of the persistent infield of Garvey, Lopes, Russell and Cey. I think of Yeager and Baker and Smith next. Then Rick Monday or Ken Landreaux... Or I wander over to the pitchers, to Bob Welch, Rick Rhoden, Don Sutton. Smith just isn't the first guy who comes to mind.

He wasn't my favorite on the team, but I certainly favored him over players from other teams. Why that is, I don't really know.

That's a good question. I guess I'm leaning toward "now," but I definitely factored in how I thought about Reggie Smith when I was a kid (i.e., "then") into the equation. And I agree, TV exposure was a big part of how players were viewed, but I think magazines, specifically SI, had a larger impact on public perception then than they do now. I knew about Garvey from SI as much as anything else, and I don't recall hearing that much about Reggie Smith from that source. Also, I spent A LOT of time perusing the Sunday averages, and since I was fixated, per the custom of the times, on batting average, RBI, home runs, and hits, I was more apt to notice Steve Garvey's .300 average, 200 hits, and 100 RBIs than Reggie Smith's (usually) lesser totals in all those areas. On that note, I was much more aware of Ken Singleton at that time than Reggie Smith, and not really so much because he was on a rival of my team but rather because he sometimes managed to edge into the very upper echelon of the American League Sunday averages, which were ranked according to batting average.

That Simmons hit so well for a C, especially in an era where most Cs didn't hit at all, helps him. From my perspective, all I've ever heard about Simmons was how great his bat was. But to beat out Smith and Singleton in terms of WARP3 means his glove must have been at least OK.

12 BP does have a ways to go in terms of putting a more usable interface on all the DT stuff. For just a handful of players though, I don't mind doing the math. Can't blame you for using a more easily sorted tool.

He figures in some memorable episodes in Bil Lee's The Wrong Stuff. He and Lee did not get along, not at all, and Lee describes him as acutely sensitive, tightly wound, and prone to aping the mannerisms and opinions of Yaz, who (according to Lee) Smith revered. He also says something about how Smith was the most talented baseball player he'd ever seen. The tension between them erupted during a game in which the opposing pitcher drilled Doug Griffin. Smith demanded that Lee retaliate, and Lee replied that he was going to wait until the Red Sox got a lead. When they did, he plunked Ellie Rodriguez (who also had a long history with Lee) and Smith confronted him in the dugout, accusing him of being racist for neglecting to bean a white guy. Smith ended up attacking Lee, then later in the clubhouse attacking him again.

Not to say this is what produced that confrontation, but it must have been difficult for Smith in Boston. He and George Scott were the first black regulars in the history of a team (and town) with a spotty reputation in that regard.

Btw, I'd say the single most influential difference that sabermetrics has made is that batters are now universally described by BA/OBP/SA. Back then the only was to describe a hitter was BA, HR, RBI.

He is almost certainly the most underrated Giants fan beater upper of the 1980s as well!

This isn't the endall and beall, but the top 5 guys by Win Shares in the '70s were three HOFers, a guy who would have been in if he didn't gamble, and Bobby Bonds. Bonds had 249. Murcer had 240. Otis had 237. Singleton had 231 and The Other Reggie had 224 (as did Simba.) I'll stop now, but the other guys who had as many are HOFers or pariahs.

27 : Bobby Bonds is a good addition to the discussion, and I think Amos Otis is a great addition. I know Bill James is a fan of the guy, but I think there are still few whose minds jump to Amos Otis when the subject of excellent players of the 1970s comes up.

On the other hand, I freakin' hated that Dodger team. Hated, hated, hated. Pompous, self-righteous, holier than thou, thought their shit didn't stink. It started at the top, with Lasorda and that "bleeding Dodger blue" bullshit, went on through the sanctimonious (and virtually sanctified) Steve Garvey, and straight on down through Bill Russell whining about getting their butts kicked. Combine that with the "Boys of Summer" hazy nostalgic "Noble Loser" nonsense that was peaking around then...and I'd say I dislike the Dodgers even more than the Red Sox.

It didn't happen, and he was thought of as a dog in some circles because of how he went about his business, but go take a look at what he was doing in the Astrodome for the entire decade. Despite punishing home/road splits, he hovered around 130+ OPS every year, won the Gold Glove every year, and stole 50 bases every year. He did everything but appear at your seat with a silk handtowel draped over his arm. Yet I'll bet his Q rating is lower than just about everyone else mentioned. Viva Cesar!

As mentioned above, it's hard to call players who got MVP votes playing on the best teams of the 70's. I do think Greg Luzinski belongs on the list though. Toby Harrah was a good player. Hal McRae, Gary Mathews.

I think I'd have to go with Ted Simmons. It's still amazing to me that he didn't receive five per cent of the vote in his one year on the Hall of Fame ballot. Tenace is tempting, but he had some real problems throwing from time to time, which made him a liability behind the plate. Simmons was no Gold Glover, but he threw better than Steamboat and lasted longer as a catcher.

A few other players worthy of mention:

*Sal Bando
*Ron Cey
*The Evans (Darrell and Dwight)
*Rusty Staub
*Kenny Holtzman
*Sparky Lyle

Question: Staub was a full-time DH in '77 (156 games) and '78 (162 games) for Detroit. Had there been another player to be an every day DH before Staub? How about a DH who played every game for his team as Staub did in '78?

I knew Simmons had fallen off the ballot prematurely, but I'd forgotten his lack of support had been so extreme. I wonder if it's because at the time he appeared on the ballot the more recent memories of him as a (good but not great) designated hitter for the Brewers obscured his prolonged time with the Cardinals as one of the best catchers in the game.

37 : I remember that fight, but I'd forgotten what it had been about. While digging around for stuff on Garvey recently, I came across something somewhere that claimed that fight caused some to lose respect for Garvey, which would make sense if he was indeed taking swings at a teammate for saying he wasn't the best player on the team.

The off-the-top-of-my-head all-time switch-hitters team:

C-Ted Simmons
1B-Eddie Murray
2B-Roberto Alomar
SS-Ozzie Smith
3B-Pete Rose
LF-Tim Raines
CF-Mickey Mantle
RF-Reggie Smith
DH-Ken Singleton

Now that would be a fun team to watch. Am I missing anybody huge?

4th outfielder - Bernie Williams
BackUp catcher - Mickey Tettleton

I agree with 44 in that I'd put Chipper Jones at 3rd base and move Rose to supersub since he could play 2nd, 3rd, LF, or RF.

Of course with all the hitting on the team they might want Wes Parker for defensive purposes, and he could actually hit a little when his career is put into the context of his times.

"All you hear about on our team is Steve Garvey the All-American boy. But Reggie Smith was the real MVP. We all know it ... (Smith) has carried us the last two years. He is not a facade. He does not have the Madison Avenue image."

Good calls on Berkman and Chipper Jones. Bernie Williams, too. I'm farsighted when it comes to baseball and often forget about current or near-current guys.

48 : You know, I never stated this (part of my all-around murky guidelines for this discussion), but in my own mind I was building this underrated discussion on the Best Everyday Player of the 1970s discussion of a few weeks ago, so I was sort of leaving pitchers out of it. No disrespect intended for Holland's Greatest; Bert's certainly at the top of the pitchers' list for sure.

Righties
C-Josh Gibson
1B-Foxx
2B-Hornsby
SS-Wagner
3B-Schmidt
LF-Rickey Henderson
CF-Mays
RF-Aaron
DH-Greenberg

Lefties
C-Berra
1B-Gehrig
2B-Morgan
SS-Pop Lloyd
3B-Brett
LF-Cobb
CF-Speaker
RF-Ruth
DH-Ted Williams

52 : Ha! I'd vote for the DH being abolished, but I use it in these kinds of lists purely as a way to avoid making tough choices, such as choosing between Raines and Singleton (I'd go Raines, though) or between Cobb and Williams (I've been thinking about it my whole life and I can't decide).

54 : Beautiful.

But, that's probably pretty much the definition of not being under rated. He was probably just-right rated.

58 : Ask and ye shall receive...

C: Ted Simmons
1B: Frank Thomas
2B: Jorge Orta
SS: Paul Molitor
3B: Edgar Martinez
LF: Hal McRae
CF: Chili Davis
RF: Harold Baines
DH: Dick Stuart

I cheated a little to get Molitor in there; he's the only guy on the all-DH team who wasn't really ever a regular at the position listed, but he did play some games at shortstop early in his career. I couldn't think of anyone who was both a regular DH and a one-time regular shortstop. Maybe someday Derek Jeter will limp the last long miles to Pete Rose's hit record while playing DH.

I wouldn't call what you did with Molitor as cheating....more along the lines of being creative. He did come up as a shortstop, so it makes sense.

http://tinyurl.com/2npzh2

As much as I love Ortiz, if he starts tailing off soon--and I wouldn't be stunned if he did, given his huge, ungainly frame--he'll fall short of Frank Thomas, who throughout the '90s was putting up numbers that Jimmie Foxx would have been proud of.

Anyway you get the picture.

There must be a few others who qualify, as well.

I guess if we count rule 5 players then we can start with Johan Santana and Roberto Clemente and build one heck of a club from there. Won't hurt to have a two time world champion starting SS on the team doing gut checks.

Now he speaks up for Kemp against Kent.

Yup, Dave Stewart is still the man.